www.koinonia.org.il

[Barry]

This is a discussion area for comments and interaction on Wayne's article: We Already Have a Shepherd
_________________
Barry Steinman
Carlsbad, California
barrys@koinonia.org.il

[Davbr39]

I agree that we have one shephard and we should all follow Him. I also agree that there are many problems in the church and a return to new testament church seems to be the order of the day. And a very good change. However, we should not go so far in the other direction we miss Gods way and His best for us.

Ephesians 4:11-14
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, til we all come to the unity of the faith and of the kowledge of the son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitfful plotting......

Discipleship is utmostly important to new believers, to all believers. There has to be some order, some structure as there was in the old testament church. Even the man to wait tables was carefully choosen, Steven. Steven was a powerful man of God and signs and wonders followed after him as it should also us no matter what our job in the body is. We don't need to be ashamed of titles that God Himself gave us! Remember the disciples were called apostles. Should we shy from that? I don't see the need to. Only now is the very important job of the apostle being returned to the body of christ.

All Chirstians need to be lifted up and impowered to be who God called them to be. We are all called to do the work of Christ. The last thing the church needs is more suppression! Nor more religion nor more false humity.

I in part agree with you but think you take it too far in the opposite direction of the church as we now know it. Balance is badly need in the church of Jesus Christ in every area and certainly in this area as well. Let's not leave the church as we know it only to create something even worse. The harvest is ripe and the time is short...We need to get it right. Evelyn Brooks

[rachael]

We have a fledgling group here in England, and have just come to the same conclusion, that we are all leaders and we are all followers. We lead by example in our own lives, we follow when He tells us, not when any human says so. A word that came to us in our meeting last night was 'I am the beating heart in the body of my church, and I will lead you.'

Rachael

[Gary - gcprice@whro.net]

I want to comment on the following quote from Wayne's article:

One Flock With One Shepherd

When God exposed the false shepherds in Ezekiel 34, he didn’t say he would get rid of the false shepherds and find better ones. He said he would remove the false shepherds and shepherd them himself. He would lead them to safe pastures and protect them from harm so that they would never be afraid or abused again.

With that instruction, why do we have so many people today who insist on being shepherds? That’s not what I Peter 5 is about. Peter tells those called as elders to lead like Jesus did, not by compulsion, not for money, nor to lord over the flock, but simply by being an example of Christ’s life to others.

Those who try to act on his behalf in this way are put in an untenable position. Eugene Peterson described it in his translation of Psalm 14:3 as “Sheep taking turns pretending to be the shepherd.” It gives false teachers a platform to deceive and manipulate people and corners well-meaning people into roles that distort the reality of God’s family.

Why do we think that we need leaders to follow when we have the Leader himself? In John 10 Jesus said he was the only shepherd and those who follow him “shall become one flock with one shepherd.” Why is the body of Christ so weakened and divided today? Because we march to a thousand shepherds, each claiming the mantle of Christ and each leading people to what they think is best.

How do you live this reality practically? If you find yourself weighed down by someone who wants to be your shepherd, take some distance. While you may benefit from some of God’s work in them, living your spirituality through them will only rob you. Don’t think you have to dismantle their organizations, just live in the freedom God gives you.

When God does bring someone near whom he has shaped by his life, listen and watch them without becoming dependent on them. Don’t be so paranoid of falling prey to false leadership that you miss the gifts of wonderful people God has put near you.

And if you’re one of those God has freed from the desire to rule over others, it may be time for you to step up. Don’t think for a moment that God led you outside the power structures to be isolated. He did it to free you from its clutches so you could serve people in a greater way into a fuller life in him.

We will be one flock when we embrace one shepherd. Only when we all learn how to live in him and follow him will we realize the joy and the power of the unity that he desires for his church. Any one who leads in this family, will want nothing less.


I agree that we are to follow the Lord Jesus as THE GOOD Shepherd. But the Lord by His Spirit, leads through those He has matured in faith. To be on with the work of a shepherd (feeding lambs and sheep) is what Jesus told Peter in John 21:15-17. This is echoed in the exhortation given to elders in 1 Peter 5:1-4. This is all to simply re-say and emphasize what was been pointed out by the brother posting on April 5th - namely that Ephesians 4:11 indicates that the Lord has given gifts to the church - and ONE of those gifts is "pastors" (alternate word being: shepherds).

He has also given "teachers" (the Ephesians 4:11 passage declares that to be so also) - but the Lord Jesus warned in Matt. 23: 1-12 to not be CALLED "Teacher", "Father", or "Master" (i.e. in a spiritual sense). There is something about the taking of such TITLES that exalts the person instead of his being lowered to the abased and humbled position spoken of in verse 12 in the Matt. 23 passage.

For instance: the word "reverend" is found only once in all of the scripture (Psalm 111:9) and it ascribes to THE LORD "holy and reverend is His name". When the Lord open eyes, the follies of the religious establishments within Christendom are clearly seen. The various titles of clergy being embraced are both numerous and pervasive: "Father _____", "Reverend ______" - and then we see compounded titles like: "Reverend Father_______", "Most Holy Reverend Father_______" . . . and the list goes on. Man's pride, even within religious and spiritual circles, seems to know no limits!

Paul also warns in 1 Cor. 1:11-16 about "contentions" (contrasted with divisions) based upon some identifying themselves as "of Paul", "of Apollos", "of Cephas" . . . and even "of Christ". We need to take heed to ourselves that pride not be allowed to assert itself even in our looking to name only the name of Christ. Sectarianism and being overly exclusive always lurk about as potential causes of prideful stumbling - even to those who look to come out and be clean of the various taintings of the world as cast in religious establishments and influences naming the name of the Lord. Be encouraged to take a further consideration of 2 Cor.6:14-18 and Romans 12:2.

Hoping that these observations bring some balance to the otherwise excellent article written, I pray that it is received and taken to heart so that those seeking to truly follow the Lord will not have their understanding tainted or compromised in this area. Blessings to all. Gary (gcprice@whro.net)

[Gary - gcprice@whro.net]

I want to comment on the following quote from Wayne's article:

One Flock With One Shepherd

When God exposed the false shepherds in Ezekiel 34, he didn’t say he would get rid of the false shepherds and find better ones. He said he would remove the false shepherds and shepherd them himself. He would lead them to safe pastures and protect them from harm so that they would never be afraid or abused again.

With that instruction, why do we have so many people today who insist on being shepherds? That’s not what I Peter 5 is about. Peter tells those called as elders to lead like Jesus did, not by compulsion, not for money, nor to lord over the flock, but simply by being an example of Christ’s life to others.

Those who try to act on his behalf in this way are put in an untenable position. Eugene Peterson described it in his translation of Psalm 14:3 as “Sheep taking turns pretending to be the shepherd.” It gives false teachers a platform to deceive and manipulate people and corners well-meaning people into roles that distort the reality of God’s family.

Why do we think that we need leaders to follow when we have the Leader himself? In John 10 Jesus said he was the only shepherd and those who follow him “shall become one flock with one shepherd.” Why is the body of Christ so weakened and divided today? Because we march to a thousand shepherds, each claiming the mantle of Christ and each leading people to what they think is best.

How do you live this reality practically? If you find yourself weighed down by someone who wants to be your shepherd, take some distance. While you may benefit from some of God’s work in them, living your spirituality through them will only rob you. Don’t think you have to dismantle their organizations, just live in the freedom God gives you.

When God does bring someone near whom he has shaped by his life, listen and watch them without becoming dependent on them. Don’t be so paranoid of falling prey to false leadership that you miss the gifts of wonderful people God has put near you.

And if you’re one of those God has freed from the desire to rule over others, it may be time for you to step up. Don’t think for a moment that God led you outside the power structures to be isolated. He did it to free you from its clutches so you could serve people in a greater way into a fuller life in him.

We will be one flock when we embrace one shepherd. Only when we all learn how to live in him and follow him will we realize the joy and the power of the unity that he desires for his church. Any one who leads in this family, will want nothing less.


I agree that we are to follow the Lord Jesus as THE GOOD Shepherd. But the Lord by His Spirit, leads through those He has matured in faith. To be on with the work of a shepherd (feeding lambs and sheep) is what Jesus told Peter in John 21:15-17. This is echoed in the exhortation given to elders in 1 Peter 5:1-4. This is all to simply re-say and emphasize what was been pointed out by the brother posting on April 5th - namely that Ephesians 4:11 indicates that the Lord has given gifts to the church - and ONE of those gifts is "pastors" (alternate word being: shepherds).

He has also given "teachers" (the Ephesians 4:11 passage declares that to be so also) - but the Lord Jesus warned in Matt. 23: 1-12 to not be CALLED "Teacher", "Father", or "Master" (i.e. in a spiritual sense). There is something about the taking of such TITLES that exalts the person instead of his being lowered to the abased and humbled position spoken of in verse 12 in the Matt. 23 passage.

For instance: the word "reverend" is found only once in all of the scripture (Psalm 111:9) and it ascribes to THE LORD "holy and reverend is His name". When the Lord open eyes, the follies of the religious establishments within Christendom are clearly seen. The various titles of clergy being embraced are both numerous and pervasive: "Father _____", "Reverend ______" - and then we see compounded titles like: "Reverend Father_______", "Most Holy Reverend Father_______" . . . and the list goes on. Man's pride, even within religious and spiritual circles, seems to know no limits!

Paul also warns in 1 Cor. 1:11-16 about "contentions" (contrasted with divisions) based upon some identifying themselves as "of Paul", "of Apollos", "of Cephas" . . . and even "of Christ". We need to take heed to ourselves that pride not be allowed to assert itself even in our looking to name only the name of Christ. Sectarianism and being overly exclusive always lurk about as potential causes of prideful stumbling - even to those who look to come out and be clean of the various taintings of the world as cast in religious establishments and influences naming the name of the Lord. Be encouraged to take a further consideration of 2 Cor.6:14-18 and Romans 12:2.

Hoping that these observations bring some balance to the otherwise excellent article written, I pray that it is received and taken to heart so that those seeking to truly follow the Lord will not have their understanding tainted or compromised in this area. Blessings to all. Gary (gcprice@whro.net)

[Gary - gcprice@whro.net]

I want to comment on the following quote from Wayne's article:

One Flock With One Shepherd

When God exposed the false shepherds in Ezekiel 34, he didn’t say he would get rid of the false shepherds and find better ones. He said he would remove the false shepherds and shepherd them himself. He would lead them to safe pastures and protect them from harm so that they would never be afraid or abused again.

With that instruction, why do we have so many people today who insist on being shepherds? That’s not what I Peter 5 is about. Peter tells those called as elders to lead like Jesus did, not by compulsion, not for money, nor to lord over the flock, but simply by being an example of Christ’s life to others.

Those who try to act on his behalf in this way are put in an untenable position. Eugene Peterson described it in his translation of Psalm 14:3 as “Sheep taking turns pretending to be the shepherd.” It gives false teachers a platform to deceive and manipulate people and corners well-meaning people into roles that distort the reality of God’s family.

Why do we think that we need leaders to follow when we have the Leader himself? In John 10 Jesus said he was the only shepherd and those who follow him “shall become one flock with one shepherd.” Why is the body of Christ so weakened and divided today? Because we march to a thousand shepherds, each claiming the mantle of Christ and each leading people to what they think is best.

How do you live this reality practically? If you find yourself weighed down by someone who wants to be your shepherd, take some distance. While you may benefit from some of God’s work in them, living your spirituality through them will only rob you. Don’t think you have to dismantle their organizations, just live in the freedom God gives you.

When God does bring someone near whom he has shaped by his life, listen and watch them without becoming dependent on them. Don’t be so paranoid of falling prey to false leadership that you miss the gifts of wonderful people God has put near you.

And if you’re one of those God has freed from the desire to rule over others, it may be time for you to step up. Don’t think for a moment that God led you outside the power structures to be isolated. He did it to free you from its clutches so you could serve people in a greater way into a fuller life in him.

We will be one flock when we embrace one shepherd. Only when we all learn how to live in him and follow him will we realize the joy and the power of the unity that he desires for his church. Any one who leads in this family, will want nothing less.


I agree that we are to follow the Lord Jesus as THE GOOD Shepherd. But the Lord by His Spirit, leads through those He has matured in faith. To be on with the work of a shepherd (feeding lambs and sheep) is what Jesus told Peter in John 21:15-17. This is echoed in the exhortation given to elders in 1 Peter 5:1-4. This is all to simply re-say and emphasize what was been pointed out by the brother posting on April 5th - namely that Ephesians 4:11 indicates that the Lord has given gifts to the church - and ONE of those gifts is "pastors" (alternate word being: shepherds).

He has also given "teachers" (the Ephesians 4:11 passage declares that to be so also) - but the Lord Jesus warned in Matt. 23: 1-12 to not be CALLED "Teacher", "Father", or "Master" (i.e. in a spiritual sense). There is something about the taking of such TITLES that exalts the person instead of his being lowered to the abased and humbled position spoken of in verse 12 in the Matt. 23 passage.

For instance: the word "reverend" is found only once in all of the scripture (Psalm 111:9) and it ascribes to THE LORD "holy and reverend is His name". When the Lord open eyes, the follies of the religious establishments within Christendom are clearly seen. The various titles of clergy being embraced are both numerous and pervasive: "Father _____", "Reverend ______" - and then we see compounded titles like: "Reverend Father_______", "Most Holy Reverend Father_______" . . . and the list goes on. Man's pride, even within religious and spiritual circles, seems to know no limits!

Paul also warns in 1 Cor. 1:11-16 about "contentions" (contrasted with divisions) based upon some identifying themselves as "of Paul", "of Apollos", "of Cephas" . . . and even "of Christ". We need to take heed to ourselves that pride not be allowed to assert itself even in our looking to name only the name of Christ. Sectarianism and being overly exclusive always lurk about as potential causes of prideful stumbling - even to those who look to come out and be clean of the various taintings of the world as cast in religious establishments and influences naming the name of the Lord. Be encouraged to take a further consideration of 2 Cor.6:14-18 and Romans 12:2.

Hoping that these observations bring some balance to the otherwise excellent article written, I pray that it is received and taken to heart so that those seeking to truly follow the Lord will not have their understanding tainted or compromised in this area. Blessings to all. Gary (gcprice@whro.net)

[slaprise]

In response to gcprice's comments I would like to say that in Jesus' conversation with Peter in John 21:15-19, Jesus asked Peter to care for His sheep in many ways but never tells Peter to "be" the Shepherd only the hireling that cares for the sheep.

In John 10:11-16 Jesus says "I am the good shepherd, The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the sheperd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14I am the Good Shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and One Shepherd."

What a perfect reflection of a church who has considered their pastor to be "The Shepherd" yet when there is trouble that same "Shepherd" or "Pastor" flees and leaves the flock to be devoured, never having shown "his sheep" the true Shepherd that will never leave them. When pastors talk about "My flock" or "My congregation" or name their church and ministry after themselves they rob God of the worship and honor due His name. Christ is to be exalted and His name is to be above every name yet people continue to follow men who put themselves first.

Ezekiel 34 contains a rich example of what is happening in the church today with "The Sheperds" that are feeding themselves while God's sheep go hungry. These same shepherds have allowed the sheep they claim as their own to wander aimlessly in their daily lives waiting for someone to look for them and help them. I believe and pray that these self proclaimed shepherds will have God's sheep removed from them and be left with nothing. Certainly this will only take place when we God's sheep begin to listen to the voice of the True Shepherd.

Question yourself? Am I a sheep of the True Shepherd or am I following a hireling. How can I know where I stand? Clearly, Christ has shown us that their is One Shepherd and only one. Although we should listen to wise council it should be viewed through the light of Christ's words.

John 10:26-29 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 my sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers, hand. 30 I and My Father are one."


Have we been snatched from the hand of God to fulfill the dream or vision of a man set on a course of excellence according to the world's standards or are we true sheep? What does the voice of The Shepherd sound like?

We are one body in Christ!!! Are we reflecting that through our peace and joy and love for one another??? Let's do.

[Jason]

I am interested in what is being said here and there are some pretty strong cases being presented, but I am not sure, in clear terms, what exactly the discussion/argument/disagreement, or agreement is about.

Could someone please put it into plain terms for me? I am a newly elected church leader and would like some plain perspective on the views of leading (as a servant) or leading (a in 'being in charge') and whether we are doing away with both or the latter?

Either way, leading means, someone leading and someone or others following. It's a principle that works well in business and seems to avoid a 'free for all' environment. There needs to be someone who drives the vision etc.

It comes down to the style, heart attitude and relationship of the 'leader'/shepherd. Jesus gave us an example of leadership, the servant. An example is to follow.

Am I on track with the subject, or is it a lynching at dawn?

[Jim Taylor]

The following scripture is one I came upon some time ago, while I was trying to 'figure out' what seemed to be so sadly missing in the church and why. I found this enlightening and very troubling at the same time, but do think it explains a lot.

Jer. 5:30,31.
A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love [to have it] so; and what will ye do in the end thereof?

The troublesome part of this scripture is the fact it refers to MY people loving to have it so. In other words while the prophets are speaking falsehood and the priests are ruling by their own means, Gods' PEOPLE LOVE to have it so.

I do agree with the fact that the LORD is my SHEPHERD and His 'fivehfold' gifts can and will operate through every member of His body as He chooses. The gifts were never intended to created celebrity leaders, however His people do seem to like it that way, don't they??

I for one have far more questions than answers, but do think the present 'system' is fundamentally flawed and could well be beyond repair.

In Christ
Jim

[Michelle]

GIVE US A KING--the people cried! Oh, they love to have it so--how true, and in doing so, they have rejected the One Shepherd, the One King, the One who is all in all. Why do we feel we must have some other shepherd, some other king, some other leader? Is Jesus not sufficient to lead and to rule in the lives of each and every member of His very own Body?? For you have no need that any man teach you--the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. The old covenant law with priests and kings has been fulfilled in Jesus (who is our High Priest and King), and God has given us His Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us into ALL TRUTH. Why would we still insist on a mere man to rule over us like the heathen nations? IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU!

Jesus is ALL! He is THE Apostle, THE Prophet, THE Pastor/Shepherd, Teacher, Evangelist, and so much more. When anyone, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, steps out in any area to do the will of the Father, they are a part of the Body expressing Jesus (the Head) in the earth. The member is not "the pastor", the member is not "the teacher"--Jesus is, by way of the Holy Spirit, expressing Himself through the yielded individual. How can we possibly take any credit or any title or position to ourselves, when it is ALL Jesus. That's why one member cannot be "over" another. Yes, there are leaders, but nothing like the leaders you'll find in any religious organization or man-made government. True leaders will never allow others to elevate them or set themselves apart from the rest of the Body, and they will ALWAYS point the way to Jesus. Leaders are those who have gone on before--those who may have more wisdom from experience. They are only further along on the same path, helping others to go in the right direction--toward Jesus.

As far as a "free for all"--sounds good to me. When ALL ARE FREE, every time we gather, to express Christ in the way God always intended--each one having a psalm, a poem, a teaching, a word of encouragement, a testimony, a word of knowledge, a prophecy, a revelation, etc., etc., etc. There are so many ways God can express Himself through His people. But in order to do so, we must be FREE! Those who have been set free are free indeed--not only from the bondage of sin and death, but from the bondage of the harlot church system (enlightening book, by the way--"The Harlot Church System"). This is true Body function, and I'm so thankful to have a small part in such an awesome expression of Christ in the earth.